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Since the chat itself happens at a rapid pace, it's often difficult to note interesting facts in particular URLs as they appear on-line. Here's a place to take a more leisurely look. I've rearranged some of the pieces to try to capture the various threads of discussion (which sometimes get lost in the rush of live chat).
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Christopher Locke -- So Richard, whaddya want to talk about? I think David Weinberger is scheduled to show up as well, right?
Richard Seltzer -- All, it's time to get started. As you connect, please introduce yourselves and let us know your interests. Our guest today is Christopher Locke, co-author of The Cluetrain Manifesto.
Christopher Locke -- hello, are we live here yet? any callers?
Richard Seltzer -- Welcome, CamBridge, please introduce yourself and join in. This is a free-for-all format.
CamBridge -- Hello there. I work as a Web professional and am interested in reading your book Chris.
Christopher Locke -- what kind of web pro, Cam?
CamBridge -- I'm a Web designer
Richard Seltzer -- Welcome, Alfred, glad you could make it. Please introduce yourself and dive in. If you haven't read the book yet, you'll want to. (It would have been great to be able to hand that to Ken Olsen and Jim Sims years ago at Digital.)
Christopher Locke -- what do you suspect Olsen would think of cluetrain?
Richard Seltzer -- Ken basically wouldn't know what to do with it. Just as he didn't know how to cope with our internal notes. He on several occasions wanted to shut all the notes files down. (Alfred Thompson and I had to jump in and try to work out compromises and procedures to keep the internal dialogue going.)
John Watkins/The Simple Society -- John Watkins of The Simple Society. We're trying to construct a model of a simpler, more humane society that facilitates the realization of individual potential by every individual
Barbara -- Hello. Just dropped in for a few minutes to listen and learn.
Christopher Locke -- btw, The Cluetrain Manifesto -- the book we're discussing here -- went to #9 on the Amazon bestseller list yesterday, and is currently holding at #10. I think this is significant beyond the sales figures...
rick levine -- Hey folks, sorry for the late join-up. Fires burning, etc.
Richard Seltzer -- Welcome, Rick -- are you in Rick Levine, co-author of this same book?
rick levine -- I'm the token techno-dweeb in the bunch.
David Weinberger -- Howdy. This is David Weinberger, one of the Cluetrain authors. Sorry I'm late. I'm easily confused. I'll lurk for a while...
Christopher Locke -- Weinberger, don't lurk! say something for god's sake!
rick levine -- No, let him lurk.
Richard Seltzer -- Welcome, David -- so we actually have three of the four co-authors. What are you up to now? Writing another book? Doing a startup? Working as a consultant? Once you wake people up with a book like this, it's only natural that you should have companies contacting you asking for help.
Richard Seltzer -- Chris, Rick, and David -- what are you up to now? Are you working together again in any way? In any case, are you doing another book? Or doing an Internet startup of some kind (seems like everyone is).
rick levine -- Hah. Working together? You're assuming we did for the book! All-in-all we only had two face-to-face meetings with all four authors to write the book.
Christopher Locke -- I'm writing a new book (solo) called "Gonzo Marketing: Winning Through Worst Practices."
rick levine -- I'm doing the start-up thang. Little company
Richard Seltzer -- Rick -- can you say anything about your startup -- what general area of business you are focusing on? Also, isn't Chris in Boulder too? Are you working together on this?
rick levine -- I can't say much about the startup, sorry. Still in stealth mode. It's at www.mancala.com David W. is the current other indicted co-conspirator.
Christopher Locke -- chris doesn't do startups. nothing personal.
rick levine -- Ya, Chris is claiming editorial independence. (C'mon, RB, where are ya?)
David Weinberger -- So much for just lurking :) I'm writing, working on a book proposal, working with Rick's start-up thang, doing some consulting.
Christopher Locke -- as we use the word, I don't think "voice" refers to modality such as text vs telephony, but something deeper and more personal. text actually has benefits here: like time to compose one's thoughts...
Richard Seltzer -- So, Chris, what becomes of "voice" when we move from typed text to audible voice? You mention too that "invisibility is freedom", and now webcams are becoming common. Does that skew the Internet away from your vision of what it can be and should be? Or does that audio/video world become an extension of the present culture?
Richard Seltzer -- Chris -- I get the sense that "voice" the way you use it involves spontaneity. The rapid chatter of fast moving keys, and also the speech that is impromptu -- not the carefully edit text and not the rehearsed video/model image. You are who you are most when you don't have time to think about it -- when you just do it.
Christopher Locke -- spontaneity, yeah. but there's also a record. I can't imagine one big con-call...
Alfred Thompson -- I saw a demonstration at Carnegie Mellon of a system that indexes audio and video a couple of years ago. It has great potential.
Richard Seltzer -- Chris -- yes the "record" is essential. That's why I post transcripts of these chat sessions. That's also why I like SiteScape Forum which automatically saves transcripts with threads, even. Then the text can be read later and indexed and searched and it becomes part of the growing dialogue, rather than a lone voice in the wilderness.
Ron Rothenberg -- Dragon systems is selling systems that index audio, called "audiomining."
Richard Seltzer -- I believe that Virage can also index audio. AltaVista partnered with them on a demo a while back. When voice can be turned to text it becomes part of the growing opus. But then, it has to be captured for that to happen. And for now, I believe that the live audio chat programs don't archive.
John Watkins/The Simple Society
-- Christopher. I agree that one large conference call is
incomprehensible. Getting any kind of order amongst the participants,
especially when passions are involved, is highly unlikely. Getting the
voice messages separated and transcribed may be nearly impossible. And,
as someone else said, there may be too much spontaneity and too little
deliberation in conversational interaction. Even more important, the speed
of speech is too slow as opposed to average reading speeds. Therefore,
voice will produce much less.
Christopher Locke -- I agree with John re voice. hell, I am not even comfy with chat!
Christopher Locke -- yeah, people to people. though I wouldn't dis the documentary aspects of the web...
Richard Seltzer -- Chris -- re: documents. In your book you put heavy emphasis on hyperlinks. I'm inclined to emphasize the effect of search engines too. Thanks to search engines, it is possible to create self-expressive documents, get them well-indexed and findable (without links), and have those documents become the focus of interesting discussions. I do that all the time. Seems like an extension of what you were talking about. A document doesn't have to be static. All depends on how you use it (not on technology).
Christopher Locke -- yeah, I realized recently that 10 years ago, all we had was Dialog and Lexis/Nexis for docs. very expensive and exclusive.
John Watkins/The Simple Society
-- Richard, you suggested emphasis on search engines as well as
hyperlinks but I wonder how much longer search engines will be a reliable
method for connecting when individual searchers are presented so many choices.
I wonder if links are not likely to be more productive. What about WebRings?
Alfred Thompson -- Tim Berners-Lee has been arguing that links, rather than search engines and knowing URLs, were what he intended. Unfortunately, I do not think that links alone are working in the current context. There are too many poor links and not enough really thoughtfull links. The initial concept of the internet as a hypertext virtual document was lost around 1994. The net just went wild.
Christopher Locke -- indexing and browsing (structure) are complementary, not mutually exclusice. 'twas ever thus. fights over which is best get really stupid really fast I think.
Richard Seltzer -- Chris and Alfred -- when pages are fully indexed and people know how to use search engines effectively, every unique word and phrase begins to work like a link, without having been structured as such.
Christopher Locke -- "every unique word and phrase begins to work like a link" -- not sure I agree. without intentional semantics, I don't think you can call these hyperlinks. though yeah, the conccurrence of index terms gives important clues. too deep for this discussion I think.
Alfred Thompson -- I agree that indexing and browsing are complementary. I think the problem is that each is better for some things. The reality is that there are too many indirect paths and not enough direct paths for things to flow nicely.
Richard Seltzer -- Alfred -- I agree the Web is certainly messy these days, and getting messier. But much of the beauty and fun comes from the unintended tangles. I expect that audio, video, high bandwidth, etc. will make it even messier and more interesting.
Alfred Thompson -- Richard the problem with depending on indexes too much is the difference between random and sequential access. Looking for a fact in isolation is one thing. It is quite another to follow a thread from beginning to end. Like the difference between linked lists and hashing in computer files.
Ron Rothenberg -- no, it's never the tools, it's always the users of the tools.
Richard Seltzer -- Chris -- Absolutely. One favorite expression of mine is that technology stimulate the imagination, but marketing changes the world. Far more is technologically possible than will ever be widely adopted. What matters is what you do with the tools in front of you.
Christopher Locke -- I think marketing has to BECOME imagination...
Ron Rothenberg -- human nature changes only very slowly.
Christopher Locke -- Hopper and Deming are germane, absolutely. Deming said "drive out fear" -- companies have conveniently forgotten that bit.
Richard Seltzer -- It's easy to talk about the need for open communication and very difficult to follow through, especially when people start criticizing you and heading off in directions you didn't anticipate. It's hard when your kids reach the age when they can think for themselves -- how do you know the right time to step back and let them be themselves. Many managers start with a paternalistic notion of their relationship with employees and find that very hard to get away from.
Richard Seltzer -- Chris much of what you write about deals with the internal workings of companies, intranets, the importance of voice and dialogue inside a company. I think that that is often overlooked. You also make good points about knowledge management only making sense if people actually talk to one another and share information.
Christopher Locke -- I don't think that "let them be themselves" is the point. they will anyway. letting is itself a paternalistic notion. people are giving themselves permission to be human and that's extremely powerful.
Christopher Locke -- if they don't have community inside, their external efforts aren't likely to make much progress -- yeah, that's true. they are likely attempting some sort of higer level manipulation, which will backfire horribly I'd think.
Christopher Locke -- companies contacting you -- we tell em to piss off.
rick levine -- Actually, at one point we contemplated shutting down the cluetrain site. We were pretty strongly of the opinion that creating a 12-step consulting practice out of cluetrain was clueless.
Richard Seltzer -- Chris -- sounds like an opportunity -- why not hire out as a corporate gadfly -- help break up the old corporate culture, help wake up employees as well as manager and get them moving. Throw some chaos and fun into the intranet, shake things up enough so a company gets the experience it needs to effectively open up to the rest of the world.
rick levine -- Hah. "Rent-a-gadfly." :-)
David Weinberger -- (Gad fly-fishing: Issuing statements intended to lure a corporation out of its accustomed stream.)
Richard Seltzer -- Chris -- what's Net Perceptions about?
Christopher Locke -- I'm trying to fundamentally redefine "personalization" and "marketing" -- that's gadflying enough.
CamBridge -- Net Perceptions -- I saw them profiled on Nightline, I believe. Seems like they're doing some interesting stuff
Christopher Locke -- Net Perceptions sells "recommendation engines" -- collaborative filtering tools. you see this on Amazon and CDNOW and such sites.
Christopher Locke -- the Nightline piece was very good. there's a transcript and streaming video on the ABC site. I have URLs if you send me mail...
Richard Seltzer -- Chris -- how does Net Perceptions differ from Firefly (which , before swallowed by Microsoft, was very useful). Digital also had something of that kind called Each-to-Each, which was even better but fell victim to corporate politics.
Christopher Locke -- uh... Net P exists and Firefly got absorbed into Microsoft?
Christopher Locke -- there was also a killer piece in the New Yorker (of all places) on collaborative filtering and its imolications -- positive ones. Malcom Goodall was the author (I think).
rick levine -- Ok, let's stir up some trouble. I'm of the opinion that unfettered use of profiling and collaborative filtering engines like NP sells are so popular with net gorillas because they can use 'em to avoid conversing with their customers, but can still claim that they're "giving them what they want. Certainly "unclueful," nu, misterlocke?
David Weinberger -- Collaborative filtering is a type of "tacit conversation" -- hmm, I'd better slap a (tm) on that puppy...just thought it up. Or, in the wrong hands, it's the meanest weapon aimed at an unsuspecting market...
Christopher Locke -- yeah, there's a dark side to personalization -- when it's an oxymoron. but it is also POTENTIALLY a powerful way to build communities of interest.
CamBridge -- How do you balance profiling vs privacy??
Christopher Locke -- privacy is not *necessarily* an issue with collaborative filtering. it doesn't have to collect personal info to be effective. anonymous aggregate date gives many clues as to unsuspected groupings. this is the part that has profound -- and I think very positive -- implications.
rick levine -- "privacy is not *necessarily* an issue with collaborative filtering" ??? I just build the bombs, I don't drop them?
rick levine -- Np had a larger whomping statisical engine than Max and the firefly folks. Also, Max and CO. made a bet on Java. Philosophically, Firefly was more concerned with privacy, and started the P3P stuff. (Or at least made more hay out of having a privacy position than NP.
Richard Seltzer -- Rick -- in its original form, Firefly fostered communication and community, by making it easy to link with and chat with others who have simiilar interest/profiles. Think of instant messaging with groups formed automatically based on detailed profiles.
rick levine -- Yes, agreed. The first implementation certainly did that. I think that was more an artifact of the particular implementation instances than the products. When we were talking to them to buy the stuff, it was basically an even comparison proposition.
Christopher Locke -- tacit conversation is what it teases out -- think of all the people who buy books on Amazon (say the cluetrain book) but don't know each other. YET.
Richard Seltzer -- I see collaborative filtering as being the opposite of demographics -- I am what I actually want and do, not a fictitious image based on my age or residence or income or education level. I find that liberating.
Christopher Locke -- collaborative filtering as the opposite of demographics -- bingo!
John Watkins/The Simple Society
-- Richard, I agree with you about collaborative filtering being the opposite
of demographics. But it has, possibly, an inherent problem in the sense
that the first actions you
take influence what you subsequently see. What you subsequently see
tends to influence your future actions and
that may tend to narrow you before you have a chance to fully express
your individuality.
David Weinberger -- I agree, John. It'd be very useful to be able to edit the behaviors/preferences the site is using to do its collaborative filtering. And it'd be good for privacy reasons anyway. E.g., don't count my purchase of Harry Potter because that was for my nephew and don't count my purchase of "20 Ways to Please Your Lover" because, well, none of your beeswax.
Richard Seltzer -- Amazon lets you go edit your preferences -- to remove those items that were gifts, to change your ranking of items you rated two years ago when your tastes were different. It's very flexible.
Richard Seltzer -- I don't consider the information gathered by collaborative filtering need be "personal" at all. I need not say what my name is or how to get in touch with me or anything related to traditional demographics. Rather I state my preferences for books, music, movies, etc.
David Weinberger -- I agree that collaborative filtering can be really helpful since it seems to be true that people who share one set of behaviors or preferences are likely to share others. And if CF is used to start conversations among people with shared interests, then it gets even better. I worry, of course, about using it merely as a way to "target" what are in effect micro-demographic segments.
rick levine -- It's the unadvertised use of CF tech, and the effort to pass off my knowledge of you or suggestions as being other than knowledge gleaned from watching your behavior over time that I'm concerned about. I'd dearly like an option on Amazon's site to let me opt out of their click-tracking and purchase watching.
Richard Seltzer -- Rick -- the privacy issue depends on how you set up the application. If you want to play Big Brother, this could be a tool for you. But it can be set up so people maintain their anonymity (when they want to).
rick levine -- Richard, I agree that there can be "good" and "bad" uses of the tech wrt privacy. However, I have seen very few uses that advertise the stuff is being used, give any insight to the customer as to how it's being used, or allow a customer any control of how it's being used. Most implementor's knee-jerk decisions so far are to hide the fact that they're using the shit, an pretend the results are a "natural" outcome of their desire to "help" their customer. In reality, I'm being manipulated into raising their sales by a whomping percentage, but not being offered any control of how they use my data.
rick levine -- (ooohhh, this is fun. Engineering geek turnabout into rabid privacy fetishist!)
Christopher Locke -- Rick, I think cluetrain is trying to alert marketers to the dangers of subterfuge. from the sales figures, it seems that a lot are at least listening to that warning.
Christopher Locke -- I think CF broadens rather than narrows. I follow related-book pointers on Amazon and get the benefit of others' knowledge. it's not insulating.
Richard Seltzer -- I agree that CF is valuable for the individual, both for product suggestions and for possible community links. I'm a book junkie and it's of value to me to hear about books that are right up my alley -- like getting suggestions from a friend.
CamBridge -- It's the collaborative filtering that gives the amazon.com site an edge over other online book retailers. Like Chris, I enjoy the suggestions represented by like-minded people's other purchases.
Christopher Locke -- Rick - click-tracking is a separate issue to some degree, although you can filter on that too. in some ways, this is like the financial markets tracking many buys and sells and totalizing the results in realtime. interesting....
David Weinberger -- So, Chris, we should see CF used to build webs of preferences, not simple lists? I think that'd be really useful and cool.
Christopher Locke -- webs of preferences, not simple lists. yeah, and I think these will be built in the background by CF tech, then tuned by humans for human ends.
John Watkins/The Simple Society -- I wonder how often we learn of serendipitous events which dramatically change the course of a persons life. The reduction of 'accidental' exposure may have a more deleterious impact on individual development than we can possibly know.
Richard Seltzer -- "Webs of preferences" sounds a bit like the Web rings that John mentioned earlier.
Christopher Locke -- part of the background noise or music -- yeah, absolutely. you put yourself out there and see what comes back. it's freakin magic!
Christopher Locke -- a more deleterious impact on individual development -- or a more positive one. probably both at once.
Christopher Locke -- notice how I've cleverly hijacked the conversation into personalization. ;-)
Richard Seltzer -- Chris -- Well done (hijacking). But that raises the point that the conversation that is the Internet includes many elements that aren't direct person-to-person. Setting up a page with lots of well-thought-out links, writing a provocative document and getting it well indexed, participating in a collaborative filtering project -- those are all ways of connecting to one another too -- part of the background noise or music (depending on your point of view).
Richard Seltzer -- All, timing is running out. Those of you who have been lurking, please speak up -- say your piece or ask your questions.
Christopher Locke -- ah good. we answered all the questions!
David Weinberger -- What happens if you held a conversation and *everyone* lurked.
Richard Seltzer -- David -- that has happened (everybody but the guest and me lurking). But then I just have a good "conversation" with the guest, and then there's the transcript, well indexed at search engines. And the typical transcript here generates about 1000 page views over the course of a year, which often leads to followup conversations.
Richard Seltzer -- All -- time is just about up. As usual, I'll post an edited transcript in a few days. Check www.samizdat.com/chat.html Is there any chance that you co-authors would be interested in doing a followup chat next week at the same time? I realize you are busy. I'm just taking a shot in the dark, because this went so well. Any chance for a sequel?
Christopher Locke -- sequel to cluetrain? I think you'll see several from several of us. certainly from David and myself.
Richard Seltzer -- Chris -- I meant a sequel to this chat. Could you possibly join us again next Thursday to continue this dialogue?
Christopher Locke -- yeah OK. "I'll be back!"
rick levine -- Sure, otherwise I don't get to talk to these miscreants.
David Weinberger -- I'd love it. And I'll show up on time this time. Sorry. (Sigh.)
Richard Seltzer -- Sounds like we will be able to continue this next Thursday. Great. For now, everyone please post your email and URL addresses before signing off (don't presume that the software caught it.) Thanks very much for joining us.
Christopher Locke -- is this where we say goodbye? this was fun. and some good ideas came to the surface. thanks all.
David Weinberger -- David Weinberger self@evident.com http://www.hyperorg.com
rick levine -- Rick Levine, rick@mancala.com, www.mancala.com
Christopher Locke -- Christopher
Locke clocke@panix.com www.cluetrain.comwww.personalization.com
www.rageboy.com
Barbara -- Thank you for an interesting hour. Bye.
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