Transcript of the live chat session that took place Thursday, March 25, 1999. These sessions are normally scheduled for 12 noon-1 PM Eastern Time every Thursday. Please note that the US is now on Standard Time. So in international terms, we are on at GMT -5.
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Since the chat itself happens at a rapid pace, it's often difficult to note interesting facts in particular URLs as they appear on-line. Here's a place to take a more leisurely look. I've rearranged some of the pieces to try to capture the various threads of discussion (which sometimes get lost in the rush of live chat).
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jamm -- from Mexico
Richard Seltzer -- Welcome, Armin. All -- As you connect, please introduce yourselves and let us know your interests. That will help us get off to a quick start.
Armin -- Hi I am Armin and I just want to listen to this chat. I am president of Proxy-Solutions, a web company specialized in High Volume Systems.
Richard Seltzer -- Armin -- by "high volume systems" do you mean computing solutions that work for many (as opposed to custom solutions)?
Armin -- Richard -- "High volume systems" in this case means systems that can handle a lot of traffic. For example we build internet applications for the Deutsche Telekom. They have now almost 3 Million clients using their service.
Richard Seltzer -- Armin -- do customers find out about you over the Internet? Or do you have a fixed set of business-to-business customers?
jamm -- hi all
Richard Seltzer -- Welcome, "jamm" please introduce yourself and let us know your interests.
jamm -- well i work in mexico
Richard Seltzer -- jamm -- where in Mexico and what's your line of business?
jamm -- glass (vitro mexico)
Richard Seltzer -- jamm -- do you use the Internet to reach potential customers? and are your customers consumers or business-to-business? what aspect of the Linux development model is of interest to you?
Richard Seltzer -- Welcome, Madeleine, please introduce yourself and let us know your interests.
Madeleine Butschler -- Hello everyone, Madeleine Butschler of Elstra, Learning Strategists here. Sorry to join late. Topic is fascinating!
Richard Seltzer -- Madeleine -- is Learning Strategists a distance ed company? What specifically do you do? And have you tried any experiments yet to try to create a "bazaar" -- letting your visitors/customers/students participate in the building of your courses and/or content?
Madeleine Butschler -- I am a consultant. I work in a wide range of sectors.
Bob Fleischer -- Bob Fleischer, Compaq Services.
Kathleen Gilroy -- Hi everybody, I had trouble logging on today. Sorry to be late. I am the CEO of a Cambridge-based distance learning company.
Richard Seltzer -- Welcome, Kathleen. Glad you could make it. By the way, have you had a chance to check your traffic stats at your new site? I'm wondering if many people have found your forums area (where we posted last week's transcript so people could respond and take the discussion further). http://www.ottergroup.com/forums
Kathleen Gilroy -- Richard, We have not had any traffic that I can tell (no postings). It may take some time to get things cooking.
Richard Seltzer -- As for traffic, I realize that even once a forum is under way, you are lucky to get one visitor in ten to actively respond. So I wouldn't expect much in the way of postings this early (especially since the software seems to block indexing by search engines). But I would be curious to find out how many page views you've been having. Are your stats publicly visible?
Kathleen Gilroy -- I'll have to look for them. I am still learning how the software works.
Richard Seltzer -- Our topic today is the business implications of the Linux business model. We are approaching this in a broad sense. How is it possible to create a "bazaar" type environment, to open your business to the suggestions and creative participation of Web visitors? to benefit from "positive chaos"? What kinds of business might this make sense for and how would you get started?
Richard Seltzer -- Armin -- great question. To me the environment and the content are intimately entwined. You need to create an environment that encourages people to participate and to contribute content and to suggest changes and help make changes in the environment itself. For example, I would consider Ebay an excellent example of a "bazaar". Have any of you gotten deeply involved in Ebay as buyers or sellers?
Barbara -- So, is the idea behind Linux sharing? Sharing ideas, equipment, etc.? When I think of Linux, I think of software. Do you see it as a way of thinking?
Richard Seltzer -- Barbara -- We are really talking about a style of working, where numerous people, who have probably never met and who probably as self-selected volunteers, work together to accomplish a common goal. The number of people could be millions (as with Ebay) or thousands or even hundreds (as with the development of pieces of software related to the Linux operating system). The end product could be a course or a book or an auction environment. I don't think that all the good opportunities have been tested yet.
Bob Fleischer -- although the full bazaar model goes a lot farther, I think the first "level 0" bazaar is simply having an open mind to what the community has to offer you.
Richard Seltzer -- Bob -- Amen. I believe that posting a simple document on the Web can be the first step toward creating a "bazaar" -- a statement of intent and beliefs and direction and request for help and participation; and putting appropriate notices in relevant newsgroups and email lists; then adding to that document the relevant and coherent responses that come in by email. That would be starting from absolute ground zero.
Barbara -- Since most companies like to keep what they are working on a secret, how could a big company take advantage of the Linux approach? It seems that only new ventures would be willing to be so open.
Richard Seltzer -- Barbara -- good point. It isn't easy for a large corporation, with ingrained practices and corporate policies to play in this space. But little companies who figure out how to do it well (like Ebay) can grow very large, very quickly.
Kathleen Gilroy -- Richard, You seem to manage these bazaar-like groups extremely well. What kinds of systems do you have in place to manage a growing group of people with common interests?
Richard Seltzer -- Kathleen -- Basically, I have no "systems" in place -- I simply respond and ask for input. People like to be involved in a dialog where what they say matters.
Kathleen Gilroy -- Richard, How would you recommend I start a "bazaar development" of my distance learning course?
Richard Seltzer -- Kathleen -- Have you posted anywhere a clear and simple statement of what this course is intended to do, and welcomed feedback and participation? have you posted notes about this to related newsgroups and email lists, pointing them to the Web document? when you received feedback have you (with permission) posted those comments with the original document? have you made sure that everything with regard to this project is indexed by search engines (particularly AltaVista)? If so, that's a good place to start. Then if and when good ideas come in, go out of your way to recognize them -- by postings in related newsgroups and email lists as well as at your Web site. Try to build a pattern of recognition -- and not just for new ideas, but for critiques and other contributions as well. This isn't easy. There's a hell of a lot of competition for people's time and effort. So a critical need is that the course itself that you are trying to get participation on have some intrinsic value that many can identify with, that they'd really like to make happen and happen well, that they'd like to be known for having participated in the development of.
Kathleen Gilroy -- Richard, Thanks for your insights into how to get started. I'll follow your advice and see what happens.
Richard Seltzer -- Kathleen -- I'd say that the first step in "marketing" is picking the right core subject matter/project -- something that people believe in and want to join in on. That is essential for getting word of mouth and word of keystroke going. The idea is for this project to be self-perpetuating, without money changing hands. (Money is a poor motivator -- there are too many competing sources for it. A project that will really make a difference in people's lives doesn't come along very often, and when you see one, you better move fast if you want to play a role.)
Kathleen Gilroy -- Richard, So the first step in marketing is to identify those needs that are deep and unmet and can benefit from creative collaboration.
Richard Seltzer -- Kathleen -- The key here may be in identifying "what is the project?" I don't think that any particular course could become a project of this kind. The "project" is transform the education process, to create a learning environment that takes full advantage of the positive chaos possibilities of interaction over the Internet. The course becomes important as a pilot, test for the broader concept. The motivation comes from the transforming model. And the transforming model could/should be open to all, while the test-courses are the property of a particular company. (This sounds too fuzzy still -- but I believe this is the right direction: making a distinction between courses which can and should be owned and paid for, and an environment which fosters bazaar-style course development and which can be replicated.
Richard Seltzer -- Kathleen -- Yes, (just saw your earlier note) -- identify the deep needs.
Kathleen Gilroy -- Bob, I would think that the size of the bazaar is commensurate with the size of the problem. The bigger the problem (ie, a new operating system), the bigger the bazaar. My course could be developed by a small "bazaar" of beta testers who are my first users, according to our principles.
Richard Seltzer -- Kathleen -- Along the lines of what Bob was saying, you may have some courses which are traditional, pre-set, curriculum-based, and others that operate more loosely, like a bazaar. Or it may be that those who have gone through a course are then welcomed into a bazaar-like community where their contributions are welcomed and recognized and become part of future courses. (I don't think there's any one cookie-cutter answer. What's needed more than anything is devoted enthusiasm on the part of a critical mass of people. The trick is how to get that started and then how to fuel it.)
Richard Seltzer -- Kathleen -- It is very difficult to determine the optimum size, or even the minimum size of a group necessary to produce positive chaos. If a group is large enough, there will be a statistical distribution of personality types, and motivations, and types of creative thinking. And part of the game is understanding that you don't understand everything. Handpicking the team undermines the model, because the model involves opening the process enough so people can self-select, people who have skills and insights and motivations that you might not have imagined where necessary. Perhaps the natural role of some of them is to act as catalysts for others, or to act as enthusiastic fans, those who help to recognize and encourage the active participants. I suspect that for even small projects, you would need a significant number of people involved in one way or another (in unexpected ways).
Kathleen Gilroy -- Madeleine, Can you share with us some of the things you learned in your study about the developmental issues? What were the obstacles? What were the opportunities?
Madeleine Butschler -- At the very least, this approach seems to demand re-thinking our relationship to our clientele. Each time we offer a course it is never the same. The article refers to being prepared to rebuilding after the first main effort. It also refers to treating your beta-testers as if they're your most vaulable resource... -- If we cannot adopt the "Bazaar" approach whole-heartedly for all settings, I believe there are certainly pieces/precepts that have application to many situations.
Kathleen Gilroy -- Madeleine, Is your report going to be published on the web? How did you solve the problem of revenue during development?
Madeleine Butschler -- Kathleen -- Thanks for asking about the study. Having joined late I was trying to read earlier messages so I'm just catching up. It was quite an extensive study (the report will be about 100 pages. One of the challenges for development of this particular course was that it was the first on-line course for the particular institution. That meant having to put together all of the infrastructure that you would need for an entire program. Partnering to use another's infrastructure was the first approach. This gave time for internal development with software and infrastructure to take place. One of the largest issues was generating revenue during this developmental process. Students also faced 3 sets of changing technology over a 2 year period. - Hence my reference to the need to consider these ideas in light of clientele.
Madeleine Butschler -- Kathleen, With respect to your question about ownership -- It might be useful to break it into "contribution" and "copyright". Your point about the current structure not being set up for the "Bazaar" approach is well taken. We are expected to produce a finalized product for a specific deadline. This expectation, however, does not fit necessarily with the actuality of what happens with course development. In terms of "contributions" we might think of any "piloting" that can occur internally with work-mates, peers, etc. However, we might also think of the second stage of contributions coming from the first set of students -- "beta testers". This would have implications for promotional and pricing strategies, but is worth pursuing.
Kathleen Gilroy -- Madeleine, How do you separate contribution from copyright? What do you mean by copyright in this capacity?
Madeleine Butschler -- I never did quite catch up. On the matter of contribution and copyright, I believe Richard made the point. I think that in order to explore these questions we need to think about these two separately, as in who can make a contribution and what kind. Then we need to consider what that means in terms of ownership and copyright. The laws relating to Intellectual Property are really just beginning to try to grapple with this area. And I see we've run out of time so I'll just end on the note that Richard's suggestion that we explore "fuzzy copyright" is a very useful one. Thanks everyone for a stimulating discussion. Madeleine mmab@bc.sympatico.ca
Richard Seltzer -- Bob -- Along the same lines, I believe that attitude or frame of mind has a lot to do with the direction of an Internet-based business. There's a vast difference between an auction site that just uses specialized transaction software to peddle the company's goods to consumers and an auction site that is based on community -- like Ebay -- where the transactions take place off-line, with buyers emailing sellers. There's also a vast difference between games sites that just let you play against the computer and those that set up matches among individuals. And, of course, there's a vast difference between proprietary development of software or content and open community development (a la Linux). In each of these cases, the constrast is between a traditional business model where the "owner" is in control, and a model that fosters what I call "positive chaos" -- where the interactions and contributions of the many build the value of the site and the business.
Kathleen Gilroy -- Richard, I would bet that you do things intuitively that could be systematized. For example, you have methods for collecting all of the names of people who show interest in your work, then you regularly communicate with them; you create topics of interest that engage participation; and you run these chats so that they remain interesting for the hour. This is a way of managing that makes "bazaar-like" work run well.
Bob Fleischer -- It would seem that a bazaar model calls for a very different kind of management/leadership, one that is willing to leave a lot of things unconstrained, including the staffing! How does one exert any control at all over direction, timing, and output without over-constraining and killing the bazaar?
Kathleen Gilroy -- Bob, This is the big challenge, which is why I mention the issue of systems and processes. I would imagine that people need to be trained in a whole new way.
Madeleine Butschler -- Bob, You've asked a whole series of very fundamental questions. In terms of one of these -- the author alludes to at least one very interesting form of influence, if not control. That is, frequent up-dates, changes. The secrets of engagement identified seem to include: opportunity to see challenges and problem-solve, enjoy the benefits of shared solutions, all done frequently to keep the momentum up. These appear to be elements that are transferable.
Kathleen Gilroy -- Richard, Re: collaborative course work. I think I may have mentioned that Francis Ford Coppola is running a collaborative script submission service on his web site (www.zoetrope.com). In order to have your script read, you must read four other scripts. In this way, he has created a bazaar for movie scripts. I love this idea.
Richard Seltzer -- Kathleen -- Yes, I've been using Coppola's site. I read and commmented on four and my "Spit and Polish" is posted there now. But the concept is much better in theory than in practice. It is not easy to get people to actively contribute. My screen play has been up there for nearly a month now, and I've had only one person comment -- he liked it, but I was hoping for a lot more feedback.
Madeleine Butschler -- Richard, It's interesting you mention critique. The case study I referred to was on a creative writing course. The benefits research drew out a wonderful set of benefits. The instructors spoke of an "evened out playing field". This translated into: Less evidence of shyness; - more risk taking because students did not have to be present when their work was critiqued; students had greater comfort-level with critique, and, interestingly, being confined to writing meant they could not mumble something, but had to develop their ideas and justify them. (The course used a peer group structure which seemed to help.) These were only some of the benefits which emerged.
Richard Seltzer -- Madeleine -- thanks, that's very interesting about the creative writing. I believe the model could be used more broadly.
Richard Seltzer -- All -- Please, before you logoff, post your email and URL addresses so we can keep in touch. (Don't presume that the software captured it.) And feel free to email me your comments and suggestions seltzer@samizdat.com I hope you'll be able to join us again next Thursday.
Kathleen Gilroy -- Bye everybody. Thanks again.
Barbara -- Thanks for an interesting chat. Linux suggests making things democratic rather than bureaucratic.
Richard Seltzer -- Yes, Barbara -- indeed, it is more democratic than bueaucratic. That means there's tremendous upside once you get it going, but it also means that it's probably far more difficult to get it started.
Armin -- Thanks everybody.
Kathleen Gilroy -- This is a very inspirational chat. I invite anyone who is interested in working with me on this new model to send me email as to your interests and ideas.
Richard Seltzer -- Thanks again to all.
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